August 14, 2017 at 2:20 pm #1301
Michel proposes for the ACE Bank:
– A recording system rather than a system with currency
– Bringing the cost of transactions to near zero
– Basic credit given to all individuals
– Return to equilibrium using the “negative interest schema”… “debts are self-paid”…
– Every credit matches a debit
-How does this differ from a social welfare program? (From third point above)
-If there is no money or currency, then in what form does this “credit” come in?
-Still not really sure about the idea of negative interest… meaning instead of interest accruing, increasing the principal balance over time, the interest deprecates, eventually returning the principal balance to zero? So in other words, if the person just waits forever to pay back a debt it just goes away, and if he has the resources to pay back the debt before eternity is reached, then he does so out of the goodness of his heart? This just seems pretty vague as a concept still to me…. Why not just say there is no expectation to pay back? Why not just say it is part of the Gift Economy ideal? Or am I completely misunderstanding in that you still have to pay back a percentage of the loan every month, and that percentage decreases over time?
-So “debts are self-paid” implies that the debt itself is a fuel for life, and life inherently has the will to thrive and create (produce), and work in unison with the rest of society, right? So again… why not just say that the debt is not a debt at all, but that whatever is received is a gift.
– Does “every credit matches a debit” mean that fiat money cannot be used… money cannot be created out of thin air and all resources must be accounted for?
August 14, 2017 at 2:30 pm #1302
Furthermore…. how is this implemented CONCRETELY….
Lets take an example of me… Let’s say that I am the first member of this new economy, and there must be a second member (Michel) in order for there to be a flow of goods and services. Let’s say that Michel has food and I have services…. I need to eat, and so I should get a basic credit (like rations in war time?)
This is hard for me to imagine without the use of money… how is the accounting done… like “Alix gets 3 apples” and “Michel gets 1 hour of work”?
So there is no valuation given to objects here… so what is the point of accounting anyway… when you remove all value from objects and services why do we even need to account for them???
August 14, 2017 at 2:54 pm #1304
Also… the only way that this economy can work is assuming that there is already some kind of “community reserve” of basic necessities, such as food and shelter… or at least some abstraction of that, like currency, that can purchase these things in the market economy, right?
August 14, 2017 at 3:40 pm #1306
please allow me to answer the question about ACE bank one by one :
1) third point above:: Basic credit given to all individuals
Q: How does this differ from a social welfare program?
A: this is very different than social welfare, this it different than giving monnaie away without accountability,
ACE Bank allow you to have a “free credit” for your existence i.e. a credit that allow you go though difficult time or to invest is project that require some seed funds, as a major difference from established bank, you are sovereign in granting you credit, (you can get refusal) however this is a credit so you are encouraged to contribute back to the community to make it sustainable. Welfare is use to provide for the person who can’t “produce” as much as they “consume” due to a illness or disability. The majority of people are capable of serving the community… a healthy person might always reimburse naturally the credit she uses with certainly even some extra left. so everyone is responsible to make their account go to equilibrium.
to the “wellfare program” a community using ACE-bank can simply be implement ed by the “healthy person voting to allocate the excess production for the needs of the non-autonomous people. however for such a system to work we need to bound the among of persons under wellfare i.e. not able to reimbuse their personally allocated credit. and a voting mechanism to provide debt-forgiveness for the one who needs.
August 14, 2017 at 4:26 pm #1309
Actually, that is not true at all that “Welfare is use to provide for the person who can’t “produce” as much as they “consume” due to a illness or disability,” or that when given welfare it is given away without accountability, or that you are not encouraged to contribute back to the community to make it sustainable… at least that is not true in all areas where welfare is available…
A concrete example is when I was on welfare in California I was required to go to a job search office 3 times a week and sign in. I was also required to show that I applied for a certain number of jobs every month, and I was also required to check in for counseling.
Some people definitely do try to get away with not having to do anything in exchange for their money, but in reality they are actually spending energy in trying to fool the system, because they have to get around obstacles… and it is designed so that they eventually realize they could be spending that energy at a job making more money….
Now it is true that not all social welfare systems are designed like the one in San Francisco… In fact in Louisiana there is almost no social welfare, since it is mostly conservative… but still when you receive you are required to fulfill some kind of requirements on your end. Like going to classes, just for getting WIC. And in order to get money for housing you get a ridiculously low amount of money in exchange for getting a job.
In the cases where you get money because you are unable to work… it seems like the system that you have designed accounts for that as well…
So I still don’t see how your system is different….
August 14, 2017 at 4:28 pm #1310
Also… One thing that you said is not clear to me…
So this “free credit” is something that everyone gets every month? Or rather it is something that you have to apply for when in need or when starting some kind of venture, etc. ?
August 14, 2017 at 4:44 pm #1311
2) Q: If there is no money or currency, then in what form does this “credit” come in?
A: commerce among people is exchange goods services etc… we want a system that facilitate this and put everyone equal no matter the age, location , background. skills of each person.
All can be seen as exchange of energy, or exchange of value if you place a price-tag on the good and services. when I state monay is not necessary to do commerce. I mean that the token of money as we not it today “coins”, “banknotes”, “IOU” is not necessary to be exchanges, we can remove all tokens and simply credit an account on one side and withdraw on the other side. what doesn’t exist it the “paper” or metal money … the is no object that is exchange when one do a “commercial” transaction. it is solely and update of a number is 2 accounting books. (This is actually what banks are already doing).
This doesn’t mean that exchange doesn’t have value. in fact this does change the fact that everything have a price tag in order to be exchange.
Goods and Services have value, however this is everyone of us who gives value to things and services, allowing a free sense of worth for each human being.
I believe the ability to assess personal worth for its own persons and what one produce is key to empower each one of us.
ACE bank is removing the control for just one elite managing the complete banking system,and give a voice back to everyone but literally distributing banking at each individual.
In a way it is link every human being is having her own currencies with a subjective value. The economic system is scaling all these “self estimated values’
to an absolute value system based on the life (scaled to be in harmony with Nature)
so Yes there is value for each transaction in each one of our accounting book (each individual have the option to evaluate her balance in their own currency or in an absolute scale for easier interpersonal interaction.
Note: in ACE as well as in EarthNation currencies are called keys (there are not money, but more like Amazon coupon, they have on the legal side simple a piece of encrypted data.
Example I give myself a credit of 10 “ACE-keys” (ACK) to buy some apples to a merchant down the street corner …
I update my balance on my book to reflect an importation of 10 “ACE-keys” (knowing that the ACE-keys has a relative value on my own.
these 10 ACK have the value of 1kg of apple, or approximately 5-Euros
so the exchange rate of my ACE-keys is around 0.50 euros a key, while the merchant has a different relative value for the keys as he is selling is apple at 12ACK/kg. leading to a value of his key around 0.416 euros a keys.
hence the merchant account is credited by 12 ACK.
Every one has it relative scale of things and the ACE bank is taking care of relative conversion, putting every one at equality.
Absolute value are often expressed in DU (dividend unit) or ExistanceRate
for a geographic location where the minimum cost of life is 2000RU/month (where RU is a relative unit of reference Euros for example)
the DividentUnit (DU) is 2000/31 = 64 RU and th Existance rate (XT) is 64/8 = 8 RU/h
so in absolute value of the apple kilogram is 0.781DU or 0.625XT
the absolute credit is of 31 DU or 248XT
for myself it is : 2000 * 10 / 5 = 4000 ACK
for the apple merchant if it 2000 * 12 / 6 = 4800 ACK
This is a lot of brain Gym … however what is important is that you choose the value of your currency and then all the rest is transparent to the system.
August 14, 2017 at 4:57 pm #1312
So, in your example of 1 kg of apples, I mark down that I have exported 10 ACK, while the merchant marks that he has imported 12 ACK…. Is my understanding correct?
If this is correct, then doesn’t this mean that there is a discrepancy in the system? Or is this the way that you implement your equilibrium mechanism via fiat money based on personal valuation (as opposed to slavery of a workforce)? Or am I missing it completely?
August 14, 2017 at 5:07 pm #1313
Ok, so, actually you do have a currency… it is just virtual… it is (in this example) the ACK.
So that makes everything a lot easier for me to understand first of all…
How can we practically begin implementing this? Can you and I and a few other people begin to put this into practice somehow?
August 14, 2017 at 5:54 pm #1318
Also… it is a very fuzzy topic, indeed, defining what is meant by “basic needs”… we how do you propose that we address this issue, Michel? Would you propose that we allow every individual to define his basic needs for survival? Can we assume that the basic needs for one person are unique and different from another? Are there limitations on this concept, or some kind of “checks and balances” system? Or do we leave it up to the honor code and take it on good faith that the members are all enlightened so we should just trust them?
And what about the situation in which a dispute arises about the presumed basic needs of a member of the society?
August 14, 2017 at 6:04 pm #1320
When you say that there is to be a “distribution of excess production” to the public in the form of the “free credit”, how is “excess production” defined?
Does that intend to mean that no one can have a savings account? Do we do away with retirement funds and trust funds and mutual funds and every case in which money is held as an asset?
Again, I am wondering how we can implement this concretely… how can we start? We must have participants, first of all… And those participants must create the equilibrium of a stable community with the products and services they provide.
August 14, 2017 at 6:26 pm #1321
continuing on the apple example : import/export are in reference to our own account
so by getting apples I imported them, and for my book this represents a relative value of 10 ACK, to return to equilibrium I will export 10 ACK or I will use the credit I have on my account.
The apple merchant indeed exported 12ACK and to return to equiblibrium he will import 12ACK perhaps to provide for his own needs etc…
We have to remember that value of things are subjective and therefore exchange rate depend on the chosen referential
1 ACE-key = 0.0625XT in my referential
1 ACE-key = 0052083XT in the merchant referential
On the global community the exchange are recorded this way :
Michel : -10 ACK on my book (1 ACK = 0.0625XT)
Community : 5 / 8 = .625XT or 0.078125DU (record in the “community account” are registered in absolute units
Merchant : +12 ACK on his book (1 ACK = 0.052083XT)
Community: -.625XT or 0.78125DU
ending balance :
Michel has an importation credit of 10ACK
The Merchant has an exportation credit of 12ACK
the community an an importation of .625XT that match an exportation of .625XT
it looks a little complex to have as many of currencies as human being however in practice people can use an equivalence with their local fiat money so the don’t have to jungle with all the exchange rate, for the system all is transparent as it a matter of having a per account scale.
The advantage of having each one of us define our own value of the keys is that we empower each one of us, by having a value system totally in harmony of individually every one of us . All the math and conversion is automatically done transparently.
August 14, 2017 at 7:07 pm #1327
answering your question : Ok, so, actually you do have a currency… it is just virtual… it is (in this example) the ACK. So that makes everything a lot easier for me to understand first of all…How can we practically begin implementing this? Can you and I and a few other people begin to put this into practice somehow?
as opposes to bitcoin or other crypto-currency where a “piece of data” has a value here there is no token that as a value.
so during a transaction are moving an token or “valued” data. the ACE-bank record only the flow of good in an universally accepted measuring system.
the Unit of an exchange of good can be expressed in Euros, Dollars, ACE-keys, Joule, G1, equality-keys, earth-dollars, XEM or any existing currencies, however to make the system fair for everyone we measure record the value of the exchange of goods or services in and absolute scale which is in fact the purpose of money : facilitating the exchanges.
The difficulties of token based currency is that you have to secure your system such that you avoid “double spending”, problem solve in existing system by exhanging “physical money” or by proof-of-work in blockchain based currencies.
here if we don’t have a token we don’t have the double spending problem, in fact we can spend as much as we want, (and a record will be posted for every spending either you have the funds or not.
With ACE-Keys, the problem of double spending is replaced by the Sybil attack problem, we have to quarante with the technology the uniqueness of every individual and authenticate the physical person behind every sovereign account (KYC). (I will write more on this important topic later)
How do we start in real life ?
The implementation is under way, the intended interface could be exactly like a regular bank : you register for an account and you provide proof you are a “physical and alive being”. once you sovereign account is open you can pick the currency that suit you the best for your account, there are a few implementation that are slightly in the way the “free credit for existence” and dividend are distributed … we are currently exploring different options to see which one resonate with people. we believe several system can coexisted.
Still we can play with the system using an old fashion notebook and write down the exchange we do…
and in a computer age we can use any accounting software that can track multiple currencies.
more info on ACE-bank development at http://ahe.heliohost.org/projects/ACE/coins.htm
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